Interview by Jonathan Kersting
What if your brand isn’t really your logo, your tagline or even your product features?
In this episode of TechVibe, Jonathan Kersting hangs out with Carlos Tribino of The Machine for a fired-up conversation on what truly builds lasting brands: story, belief, authenticity and the emotional glue that turns customers into fans.
Carlos brings serious global branding chops to the conversation, with experience working on brands like Ferrari, Giorgio Armani, Walt Disney and The Economist. But this discussion goes far beyond big-name brand-dropping. Carlos breaks down why branding is not a cosmetic exercise, why great storytelling creates real business value and how companies can move from selling features to building movements.
From Apple and Patagonia to IBM, Liquid Death, Fender, Duolingo and The Economist, Carlos shows how the strongest brands stand on a foundation of truth, then amplify it through stories people want to believe in, share and defend. He also brings the lesson home for Pittsburgh companies: stop being humble to a fault, discover your “why” and learn how to brag in an elegant way.
Hit play to learn why storytelling is not fluff. It is value creation, market differentiation and maybe the most human tool a company has to grow.
Transcript:
Carlos
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[00:00:00] I think, people, make the kind of mistake to some extent of thinking of branding and storytelling as a, bit of a cosmetic exercise.
Some companies I think, some focus too much on the aesthetic, and I think that's an industry fault to some extent.
People focus too much on the logo and the, or the tagline and whatnot, and it, that's just an expression on the side of what the core- story is.
Brands come under pressure for whatever may the case may be and they compromise, their thing, and that, that's the biggest mistake
It's Jonathan Kersting with the Pittsburgh Technology Council, bringing you TechVibe as your front row seat to all cool things happening across Pittsburgh's technology and innovation ecosystem.
Today, I'm hanging out with a good friend, a, a compadre of the Pittsburgh Tech Council through and through, Carlos Tribino from The Machine. And Carlos, you sent me this article a few weeks ago. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is some really cool stuff." Your expertise around looking at the power of storytelling and how brands can just transform past just functionality to actually becoming these movements out there. Mm. This is [00:01:00] heavy-duty branding. This is just something I feel like everybody can learn a little bit from this today- Mm ... around how to strengthen your, your brand through storytelling- ... by using these, this, I don't wanna say extreme case, but using this very significant case of how brands like Apple and various, things like that, are able to actually get people that I think would literally probably draw blood for them, I think-
for lack of a better term. And when you put this, the, when, when you put this, this, this article together, I was like, "This is something that would be a great conversation." Which is why I'm just so glad we're hanging out today to kinda talk about this. Yeah. Because first off, I'm gonna learn a ton- Yeah
which is just great, which means by default, if you happen to be watching this or listening to this, you're gonna learn a lot today. So Carlos, no pressure, and welcome to TechVibe at the Huntington Bank Studios. Thanks, Jonathan. Great seeing you, and I'm excited to chat about this very subject very close to my heart.
Yeah. Yeah, so I'm very pumped about it. Very much. So first and foremost, I, our folks here need to really know who Carlos is, because I think you, you bring some crazy experience. This is why I'm so glad you're here in Pittsburgh building The [00:02:00] Machine. Mm. You're, the company that you have.
Because you've done some crazy cool work- Mm ... around the world when it comes to marketing and storytelling. Give us a little taste of what Carlos Trevino- Oh, yeah ... is all about. Build, build up my own storyline. Yeah, man, come on. So I, yeah, I've, I've got about 25 or so years experience in, in, I've, I've been both client side- and agency side. Yeah. Worked in f- about, I don't know, maybe 15 or so years in one of, some of the largest agencies in New York. Yeah. And my, my last chapter there was running the, a branding firm for TBWA. Yeah. And, Wulfing like that, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we, we, we worked with great brands.
We, we worked with great brands and great big projects, big impactful, yeah. We worked with Ferrari, Giorgio Armani Walt Disney- Little brands. Little brands, yeah, Disney. Little, little brands, yeah. And and we'd done, Yeah, we had actually one an- anecdote of Walt Disney called us in to, Work on their kind of failing at the time LA, park, right?
The original Disneyland, right? And they started the place of, [00:03:00] we were thinking of updating our logo, and we went there, went to LA, met with them, and say, "Guys, the, the logo is the last problem you have." Interesting. That's the way we look at brands. Exactly right, and I, I actually told them, I literally said, "If we, if we change your logo, we, we might mess it up instead of improve it." Yeah we might do more damage than good. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Let's, let's go with what's really what you need, right? And we got to the bottom of it.
They had really, At the time they had really changed the, the ma- They had lost the magic out of Disneyland. Oh, yeah. They were measuring every ride from a financial point of view and as, as opposed for an experiential point of view. Yeah. And we ended up, the, the project ended up- Interesting
being like a $1.1 billion restoration of the park. Wow. So they- Okay ... these, the- See- ... these are the kinds of, I, I went too long there, but- Yes ... the ki- the kind of- Interesting ... projects that we've worked on, or creating brands for Armani from- Exactly ... when he grown up or... we've been around the block creating storylines, creating, you know- Yeah
brand narratives. Things like Disney and stuff. Yeah, yeah. And this, this is why, like, when you write something, I pay attention, should I say? Because I'm like, yeah, you've been around the block [00:04:00] doing- Yeah ... things like that. Yeah. And you ended up in Pittsburgh- Yeah ... of all places, which I think is totally cool.
W- was, was that Wolf LLC that brought you- It was Wolf ... into town? Yeah, we... When, at the time it was it w- it was Wolf and part of that, the main focus was on giftcards.com. Exactly. And it's funny 'cause Jason Wolf, the, the owner and founder- ... he actually, we, he, he really loved the kind of the storyline I built for giftcards.com.
And then we sold the company, and years later he restarted something in, si- a similar vein- Absolutely ... similar kind of company. Oh, he's trucking away right now. And, and he's still borrowing from the brand- Ah ... that we did back then. I it goes to show you, and this is why when you write something, I read- Yeah ... we bring you on to TechVibe to talk about it- ... because I think these are things that w- first, it's fascinating discussion just from the high level to nerd out on this. But then I think about how we can bring practicality into- into our own businesses. I think we can pull little strings from some of this into our own branding- Yeah ... no matter how big or small that we are. Yeah. So I think we can make this very actionable as well too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think, I think people, make the kind of [00:05:00] mistake to some extent of thinking of branding and storytelling as a, as a bit of a cosmetic ex- exercise.
Yeah. Beauty and aesthetic and what- and there's, there's an element of that. Of course. But that, that's far from its core. And it's just gonna cost me money, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really a value creation- Yeah ... proposition. It's, it's about creating value that will con- will give you loyalty, repeat customers, referrals, the fan- fan base that will, promote your brand without you doing it.
And and that has a, a big number attached to it. It's not just a beautiful story. Exactly. Yeah. And that's sometimes very hard to quantify in the very beginning because it's like you need to get that wheel in motion so you can- Exactly ... at least get to that space. It, it does. So which is why it can be really hard to kinda, to get the the CFO in line for- Yeah
it. You say, "Can you imagine a place?" It's we can get there, but first we gotta spend some money." Yeah. Which is kinda ah, oh my God. I got, and that's a hesitation, yeah. Yeah. That I think there there is some companies I think, some focus too much on the aesthetic, and I think that's an industry fault to some extent.
Okay. You notice that people focus too much on the logo and the, or the tagline and whatnot, and it, that's just an, [00:06:00] a, a, an expression on the side of what the core- Okay ... story is. Yeah. So I think that's why sometimes some clients are hesitant because they're like I don't, I don't really need a new logo.
I'm kinda happy with the one I have," and, but the story goes way far beyond that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's amazing how I think when a company draws to its roots and its essence and it- ... puts that into a product that has great features, and that's when the magic starts happening of people that will be like, "I'll have an iPhone no matter what," yeah, yeah, yeah. And they'll defend that no matter what happens during the- Yeah ... the course of a, of a brand and so forth. Exactly. And, and so so let's talk about the idea that I feel like when you get to this level, and this is something that I think you, you bring up really early on in the in the article, is that it becomes this shared experience for people.
It's not just the brand itself owns it. We all start owning it in our minds because we're actually using the product and engaging with the brand and so forth. So yeah, the, the, It's funny 'cause I, I mentioned in the article, the the author
Yuval Noah Harari with his latest book Nexus, which is, I was [00:07:00] fascinated by it. Yeah. And he, he put it, It's what I've been doing for the past several years. Okay. This guy nailed it in, in the head. I'm like, "Wow, I never, I never qui- " I just did it, and, I've been doing it again and again.
But the way he talked about it is yeah, this is, this is great. This is so on the, on the money. The fact that he talks about... And I had read years ago for, on, in a an article in The Economist that said a human being, the Homo sapiens, us, we're the only species in the planet, in the history of, of, of the planet- Yeah
To be able to create fictitious stories and around shared belief, meaning we all, we all buy into it. No other, no- Interesting ... dolphins or chimpanzees- Yeah, exactly. Yeah ... or whatever. Nobody else can do that. Exactly. We're the only species that can do that. And around- 'Cause we're so evolved, yeah. Yeah. And we and that has added a tremendous amount of value .. and it's, it's partially the reason why we've evolved so fast- Yeah ... and why we've, we come all the way from, using wooden tools all the way to, AI, right? Yeah. The, If you think about it, currency is a great example, a dollar, dollars aren't really worth a dollar, it i- it is [00:08:00] worth what we believe is worth. It's, exactly. And, one, one week is like 1.05 euros, and the next week is 1.17 euros, and it changes, right? Funny enough, right now, If you look at a penny a penny right now, if it was manufacturer issued before 1982
Is actually worth four pennies in copper. Exactly, yeah. So if you, if you melt it- If you melt it ... you get, you make four, four times the money, right? I got some pennies laying around at home, Carlos. You're giving me some ideas here. So but yet we b- we, that's what we believe, right? We all, everybody, we're not bartering anymore, right?
We're using currency as a means of running an economy, and more efficiently, and so forth. The same thing could be done with the, what you could say about the calendar, right? It is, it is the day it is now because- We agree on it. Y- yeah, we ... Exactly. We agree on it. It's not really, the June 19th or whatever of, of 2026.
We, we made that up because of Jesus or whatever.
But there's dozens of New Years around, the cultures- Exactly, right ... dozens, dozens. Exactly, yeah. But we make this one about ... I, I know it's up over to 95%, [00:09:00] around 97% of all of the world's contracts are signed according to the Gregorian calendar.. Those are perfect examples of what, what making fictitious stories...
And fictitious doesn't mean it's a lie or it isn't sequel. Exactly. They're just- It's just something that's ... Yeah ... yeah, that we all d- agree to believe on and follow. Yeah. So when brands can do that- Uh-huh ... when brands can accomplish- That's power. That's power. Exactly. And that's e- economic value.
Absolutely. And a lot of brands have done it, successfully. Yeah. What's one that, that really stands out for you as a brand that's been able to- Ahem ... carry itself like that? I'm a huge fan of Apple. Okay. Al- always have been. Me too. But it's, but it's- Give me one of these ... but let's get...
All right. Thank you. Okay. But there's there's just brands that have created great, great stories. And the I think one of the early examples is the, the anti-Apple, IBM. IBM was, ... And these were people, on the B2B side saying what's it gonna do for B2B," right? IBM, back in the day, was for, they did this for about two decades, is like you couldn't get fired for buying IBM.
Exactly. That was the thing. It was like the safe choice or something like that. It was the safe choice. Yeah. But it became a thing. Senior intelligent executives at, [00:10:00] Fortune 500 companies would literally buy an IBM because of that, largely, influenced by that.
And that's not fluff. That's like- That's, that's- That turns into a lot of money. That's saying something Market share. Yeah. Yeah. But here's the other thing. It not only, it allowed them to sell more quantity and more loyalty with less marketing, it allowed them to charge a higher premium. So people were actually paying a lot more for IBM.
They're gonna buy it, let's just charge them a little more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's see if they pay it. So that's a great story.
Yeah. So something that I think that, that drives the, all, all this conversation are the features that are in a product, and that sometimes people just get too caught up on the features, and at a certain point it's not really about the features, but it's the brand behind it, and back and forth. Yeah.
There seems to be this, this blurring of lines. Yeah. W- where do, where does this come together? Yeah. We strongly believe that the people don't buy the products typically because of the function or the features. Yeah. It has to be good, it has to work. That's a given. Of course. Yeah, exactly.
It can't be something, but the right now, the, I was reading on a some survey that, not survey, study that they don't use 80% of the actual features. Exact- [00:11:00] I was gonna bring that up.
It's like Microsoft. Just using Word in particular, people- Yeah ... and that's me. .. I probably use four features. Yeah. But you use it all the time 'cause it's there. Yeah. And if you're gonna pick between something I'm going with that because I know it and it works great.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and then most people buy, myself included, I, I confess, I buy, I'll buy an iPhone mostly 'cause it's Apple, and I like it, I like how it works. It's reliable, it's great, it's easy to u- you know. I, but you make that connection through the whole storyline.
The case of Apple was , the famous, think different. Here's also a thing. The storyline needs a foundation. You can't make it up. It has to be a true story to it. It has to stand on its own. So what it, what, what a story, a fictitious story, it, again, it's not a lie or deceitful, but it, but it's fiction.
What it does is it, it's, it stands on the reality of a great product or service, right? And enhances it, gigantically enhances it. But if you have a crappy, product or so- it's, you're not gonna make it happen. So table stakes are the product has to be good
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need that. And from there you can start adding in the storytelling [00:12:00] that- Exactly ... really makes that relevant to people and allows them that connection when they're using- With- ... the products Yeah ... and I d- yeah, I think about the products in my life that I have these connections to that I'm like, "Why do I like..."
Like literally, "Why would I die on the cross for this brand?" I love their stuff. It's like I wish they cared about me- Yeah ... as much as I cared about them. But I'm like, "I don't know. Makes me happy." Yeah. Yeah, yeah ... I'm all there, but- And they, I, I do think it, sometime- I don't, I don't mean to sound na- naive, but the c- companies that are true to their story, to their mission, to their vision, i- if you take Patagonia for instance, right?
Great example. Great, great brand. Yeah. And they, they came up at, this was a few years ago. Their ad for Black Friday, it, there was a, this beautiful jacket, whatever, and say, "Don't buy this jacket." I saw that. You read that? Yeah. That's- That was awesome. 'Cause it's like it's, it's showing their commitment.
Patagonia's about- non-consumerism consumerism Exactly yeah, it's, it's- So- ... it's reverse psychology or something like that. Yeah, but it's great. They're being real about it, exactly, yeah. , And so they... that's important too, being authentic. I think sometimes brand- I've seen this [00:13:00] happen.
Brands come under pressure for whatever may the case may be- 100% ... and they compromise their, their thing, and that, that's the biggest mistake you can make with those things. I think about authenticity as being one of those- ... foundational things that, you know, when you're really in the marketplace, really trying to do right by your product and everything- Yeah, yeah
going out there, is that if you're not authentic- Yeah ... but who's to say what's authentic for somebody, or if you're under pressures to kinda- Yeah ... wiggle around or anything like that. It's tough to be authentic sometimes though. It is, it is. Oh. It is as a, as a person, and as a brand, and as a community- Yeah
or, yeah. Yeah. All the way around. That's why you're going through the cross, exactly, yes. Because that commitment makes you think, "You know what? These guys are real. , That's what creates, we were talking before about the movement, right?
Exactly. It creates movements. Brands like, Liquid Death, for instance, they're huge, man. But huge. They've grown- Yes. ... they're in Whole Foods, they, they're kinda like the, the anti-image of Whole Foods. Exactly, yeah. Exactly. And the, but they have a, a, they built a great brand grown by leaps and bounds.
And they're, The, you may agree or disagree, and I know there are a lot of people that get sometimes offended by the messaging- Yeah ... [00:14:00] but, they're true , to their brand. Yeah. If you get that core following, that's great.
Yep. So how do brands then navigate though? 'Cause as the world changes, as things happen, you've gotta keep this narrative up. You gotta keep the storytelling up and order 'cause it, it's not stagnant. Exactly, yeah. You gotta keep us. Yep. And something that I think about just as, as a small example is with Fender, one of my favorite companies in the world.
They're, they've been losing a lot of fan base with some of their lawsuits around their, around Strat-style guitars, and they're, trying to defend their, their brand and a bunch of things. And at the end of the day they're losing some loyal fans who are like, "I'm never gonna play a Fender again because you're suing people."
It's like they were doing really well, and then all of a suddenly there's there's this, this crisis almost that kinda goes on. Yeah. And to me it's like how do you keep that ship steering? I guess you're always talking to your customers, always getting that feedback, and then- reinventing and adjusting the stories to fit modern times, I don't know. Yeah, absolutely, and, and now it's easier than ever, because you have- Yeah ... AI, you have social media. You have a- you, you can hear the conversation. [00:15:00] Yeah. And you can hear it at scale, and so you know what's, you know what's going on. Yeah. You- it's easy to know what's happening.
So I think then it's your, a stance of , what do you do, a brand like Fender, Fender is it- yeah, it's jazz, but it's more rock and roll, I think. It's it, the... And even jazz, it's everything, man. It, it's everything. Absolutely. It's like- Yeah ... it's a, but it, it carries with the creativity and, and some subversiveness, right?
And some rebellion. Exactly. By definition, right? Yeah. So the, the example you just brought up is if you're behaving too corporate, you kinda lose that edge, right? Y- you lose that edge, yeah. It's guys, you- we're all about, rock and roll and guitars and noise and punk and whatnot.
, And, you're now suing, people? Exactly. It's kinda so- See, for me, I'm able to forgive it a little bit- ... just because I say to myself they're a business." , They have shareholders- Yeah ... and investors and things that people need to get paid, and if you're seeing an area where maybe you're being
eroded, you have to- Mm ... stand up for yourself. So there's that balancing act. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking that's probably, there's probably a lesson in crisis communications there. Yeah. That maybe would be a whole other thing for them, but- Yeah, absolutely ... it is interesting, to me as we're talking about this, that kept coming to my mind.
Yeah. [00:16:00] And yeah. You're, you're kinda confirming in my brain. Yeah. And I, and I think- Where I was going with that ... I think also these often, more often than not, and one of the... We can talk about this later, but, Sure ... one of the things we do a lot of is turning vices into virtues, let's jump into that now- Okay ... 'cause I think that sounds awesome. Yeah. Maybe, let's talk about, maybe could we use Fender as the example? Not to put you on the spot, but this could be fun to kinda walk through. You can come up with a creative way of- Yeah
Of explaining to your audience, why, like you said before, the, it's "Hey, we got sharehold- shareholders to respond to. We got, we, we're running a business, yeah. If you're out of business, you're out of guitars, right? Exactly. I don't, I'm not gonna make up the idea now here. But you can find a way to kinda counter this and try to turn that message around. We did once a somewhat similar exercise with The Economist.
The Economist had become the ... It wasn't as big in, in North America as it was in Europe, in specifically the UK, but also Europe. Yeah. In North America was perceived as too expensive as too difficult, to read, and too serious. Too serious. Okay. Too serious.[00:17:00]
And it was perceived as a financial magazine, which it's not. Wait, back. See, wait a second. I answered yes to all those questions in my head- Yeah ... "yeah, yeah, yeah." "Okay, and? Okay." So we had to we had to change , the perception. By turning, vices into virtues we said, "You know what?
Let's keep, keep the vices. There's something good about all of that stuff." Okay. Except for it's not a financial magazine.
The name- Gotcha- communicates finance, but anyway. So we said, "Okay we are serious." It's a very serious publication, but it ... Which by the way is very true. It's- The Economist can be hysterically funny. I need to start reading The Economist now ... with the cartoons. Yeah, oh yeah. See, I've always- Inside reading
stayed away from being like, "Ah, look at me, I'm not gonna read this." Yeah. Now I'm thinking, wait, I might wanna jump in here. Yeah. You're doing a great job here, Carlos. So it, it, it has a great sense of humor, and it, it prides itself on banging everybody. It nails the right and it nails the left. Okay.
Yeah. They're like sort of- It's right down the middle ... completely, yeah. Yeah. No, no apologies- it's not really a tough read, you got a college degree- You can get through it ... pretty much, yeah. Okay, cool. [00:18:00] I just gauged it- And, yeah ... on that one there, yeah.
Yeah, it is expensive, but it's well worth the premium, so we took all that and created this kinda repositioning which was oh, people called the magazine dry and dull also. I would agree on that fifth point.
Just from the name and everything else like that. Sure, why not? And then the so the campaign the whole repositioning became the only thing dry is the ink. Oh, cool. See? But it was against a background of these ridiculously funny political images. There was one of, j- Pope John Paul II with a, with a hockey stick- Okay
on a, with, which was like what, what is a pope doing with a hockey stick, right? With a hockey stick, yeah, exactly. There was another one of George- Oh my goodness. George W. Bush, with, with a, the copy said something proof that genetics can skip a generation. Oh my goodness.
And then there was one of, of Richard Branson when he was launching Virgin Bride. Yeah. He's dressed in, in a, the wedding dress or whatever. Yeah, yeah, I remember that. So it's all these ridiculously really serious people in completely- In- ... ridiculous things. Exactly. And, and it [00:19:00] said, the only thing dry is the ink, right?
Wow, that's powerful. So that was- Oh my gosh ... that was great. Then we had, when you have the magazine comes in a plastic bag, right? Wrapped up, and it was election year, and the whole front was sex, drugs, rock and roll, it must be an election year. So it was a, it was a great way of showing how- Seriousness, good quality journalism- can be fun and interesting without losing the- This is an amazing story. Yeah, no, this is like- Yeah ... this is like a little masterclass right here- Yeah, yeah ... as to how you can do this. And I think about The Economist, obviously it's, it's one of those brands that has , its diehards, right? Yeah. That, that know the value of it, but there's also this big misperception out there about what they really are- Yeah.
Yeah ... and there's market share for them to grab, right? Yeah. And there's, there's more readers that are- Yeah ... totally missing out- Yeah ... that have no idea, but what the... I'm one of those right now. I'm thinking- Mm ... I need to go check out The Economist. Yeah, ba- back to the numbers thing- Okay ... we had, at the time we had an year-to-year 40% increase in circulation, which is huge, right after that.
Oh my, okay. And then, and then it became the number [00:20:00] five mag- Barnes & Nobles, they have about- Yeah, ... somewhere about 600 magazines. Exactly. Huge. So they- So this is like number five? Number five, yeah. Was so- Interesting ... so The Economist became number five. W- and it's, it's not like a, an entertainment- Yeah
, It's a serious magazine. It's a- So it was a- Absolutely ... yeah, huge, we started off talking about how everything we're talking about today is, is, of creating these brands, telling these stories behind them, having the features that support the hype and everything like that.
Yeah. Having the good quality product. And once again I still feel like any time you bring up the words like storytelling to anyone with a C, other than CMO in their title- Yeah ... they're just looking at C as in cost. Yeah. And it's just oh, would you lighten up a little bit? I go back to, and I'm sure you'll probably agree with me on this, I love telling people they're gonna agree with me ahead of time 'cause, I'm, I'm just that smart. But the idea, a- and this goes back to our orig- original point, humans tell stories that makes them very uniquely human.
And through storytelling is how we build these allegiances, why the storytelling that has worked on me for my [00:21:00] brands like Fender, I still think they make a great product and I like what they represent- Oh, okay
I guess. But it, and so to me it's just like, how can we make this, it's not just a marketing exercise, it's not just this, oh, this expense we have to do. But this is the way we actually grow our business. Yeah. It makes us people who are on the marketing side of things a little more important too.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I've ... That, that is- Here's, I, I ... Go, come on. Let's, let's talk about how great we are, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is what it's about. E- exactly. That is what it's about. Yeah. And we, we actually the ... I, I work with an invest- a boutique investment bank. Yeah. So they're, raising money for, for clients left and right, and there's a conversation I have with a, with the CEO, actually, another C right there.
Yeah. And, and and there, there's some some specific customers where, we will agree hands-on these people need a story. And, and- ... the reason why you need a story, and and, and some brands have it more, some ... There, by the way, there's some brands, even startups, that's somehow pulled it off really well.
Okay. Yeah. And they, you walk in, and you're like, guys, you're doing it right," yeah. Yeah. How'd you [00:22:00] do this? And y- y- yeah. Like- but Duolingo one of them, wow. Yeah, no, that's a great, great example. And, and but the thing is we will raise money faster, but more importantly, we'll get a much higher valuation.
So- this is, by the way, a great product in the mining industry or whatever, and but they see it clearly. It's like we, we need help. We will get a higher valuation. That's huge for a startup, right? And get the money, get it fast, and high valuation, right? And which completely outweighs the money you spend on it, by, by a long shot. Exactly. Right now, for instance there, there's, there's been a ... the f- I'm sure it's not right now. For, for many decades right now, since 1970s and this was a study published recently, last year actually. In, in 1975 actually if you looked at the, the S&P 500 companies- ... 17% of their assets were intangible assets, right?
Pe- things like IP- Really? Okay. Yeah ... brand, brand value- Brand value, all those things. Yeah ... databases, and propriety, and so forth. Yeah. In 2025, that went from 17% throughout the decades up to now at 92%. [00:23:00] Wait a second. Which is- 92%? 92%, which is crazy. That's interest- ... Huh. So there- Okay ... there, there's, there's what w- economists are calling a migration of the value going from things that can be touched to things that can be thought. If you look at companies that, you know, v- so many software companies, digital companies, right? Yeah. That's not, not just co- yeah, you have robotics and whatnot. You have a lot of inventory that's worth a lot. But there's a lot of just software out there, right? And those companies are it's all about their IP and their- brand, and, their, the customer base and- It just goes to show you how fast things have changed- Yeah ... and how that value is there now- Yeah ... as opposed to where it was 20, 30 years ago. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah. That's a huge, big, great, yeah. So I'm, I'm always curious I wanna help our, our viewers and listeners out there.
Okay, like I'm running a company. What, what are some actual things you can start doing to start thinking about this more, or actually start implementing more? What, what are some key things we could start doing with our companies- Mm ... thinking about our brand and so forth out there? I think it's [00:24:00] a great exercise for people to w- depending on the resources, they have- Of course ... but to it take a, a look inside and, Do some kind of audit, does, is, is my brand communicating who we are- Okay.
Yeah ... what we do? One thing we tell, clients all the time is don't, don't start with what you do, start with why. Why, why are you doing what you're doing, the, and that's where the story starts building- It, that- When you're, when you're really, I'm really glad you brought that up- 'cause that is something that I think cannot be overstated. 'Cause I think a lot of folks when they're building a company, they're just, they're thinking about some of the nuts and bolts- Yeah ... the more tangible things. Yeah. And it, if you actually go into why do I have these features?" Yeah.
And, and on that type of way- ... then you might start seeing some magic start to happen as to like- ... bringing that story out- I think that's a great thing to start with. Yeah. So that, that's a g- that's a good place to start, and that is, like I say, starts building kind of the- Okay ... the story. Surely. Like I said, , some companies like, Duolingo or the likes, the, t- p- a handful of them, they do it extremely well.
Somehow they, they, they figure it out. They, they, it's authentic, it's real, it's, but a lot of co- It's, [00:25:00] it's, it's difficult for a company to take a look of itself from the outside. So difficult. It's, it's tough. It's tough because- And honestly, and that's why I honestly feel like many times, like there's many things you can, do yourself, but I think for certain exercises, that's why outside firms exist.
Yeah. You kinda need that independent party just because they don't have any preconceptions- ... like they're, they're, they're kinda neutral ... and they're just there to bring out what's there that you- Uh-huh ... would probably not see. Yeah. 'Cause I, I think about how you can't see the forest through the trees- Yeah
or whatever it is. And that's why sometimes it's if you're really moving forward, ... you gotta bring in professionals for these things- Yeah ... sometimes too. We do a lot of internal research when we work with with clients to, to learn about that story- Yeah ... about the passion, about the mission, and the why, right?
Gotcha. And sometimes we throw that back at them and say, "The, these are the, position idea," and we usually play with a couple of them that we see as, as strong candidates, right? And they they sometimes are a little too humble for their own good, okay. They're kind of like, really?
Are we really?" I'm like, "We're like, yeah." You know that gets in my heart. We, you all have said it. Yes. You've all brought it up. But then when they hear it back, they're surprised. They're like- Yeah ... "This is so cool what we're [00:26:00] doing," and they're like, "Yeah, that is what you're doing." Yeah. "And let's, let's talk about it.
Let's build it up." I'm glad you brought that up 'cause you know that's something I've been harping on for a long time is- ... especially in the Pittsburgh area, I just be some really cool companies, and they're just so humble, and I love, I love the humbleness. Yeah. But I also wanna be like a little more braggadociiousness or something-
if that's even a word. I don't know. But the idea of like cheer for yourself a little bit because sometimes I have to actually tell them, "Do you realize how cool it is what you're doing?" And they're kind of like, "Eh." Mm. I'm like, "Do you know how cool it is what you're doing?" Yeah, yeah. It's like-
start shaking the person. Eventually they get it, but, yeah, maybe- Maybe a little whiplash too while they're at it- Yeah, yeah ... but they eventually get it, so yeah. Yeah. Pretty cool. But, but it's, No, it's true. I totally agree with you. I think Pittsburgh has that being humble to a fault. Yeah, totally.
There's a, there's great stuff coming out of here. Oh, it blows my mind sometimes. You see it every day. The technology- I know ... whatever, and sometimes I think I'm getting numb to it. I say, "Carlos, give me a reality check every once in a while. Come over and smack me around, and be like, 'Jon, wake up.
Be more excited about this company.'" Oh, yeah. Oh, man. So much fun. This is the type of stuff- Yeah ... i've [00:27:00] just some really good key takeaways here for me. Just looking at the fact that man, storytelling, so important. Yeah. And, and making sure your pro- you got the right, you make sure...
There's nothing wrong with your product where you go to market obviously. No, yeah, yeah. But just some of these basic things you just, y- y- you have to have. Mm. That solid product. You gotta, be able to really s- tie that to
the consumer. And, and as you do that, to me, I'm just like, "Yeah, magic starts to happen." Yeah. And that's just so cool. And I'm like, now I start evaluating all the different brands that I love so much and why I do. Me too. And I'm like, man, Patagonia, you brought one up, one of my favorites. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just, it's just so true.
Yeah. Yeah. So remarkable conversation today. We're gonna link to your article as well too, so people who wanna do the full nerd out on it- ... they can do that as well. But there's nothing better to me than having a conversation with somebody- Yeah ... around this, especially- it's always fun to talk to you.
Oh, man. You, you put so much, so much energy into it. It's such- Oh, I love it ... great energy. Yeah, 'cause it, it's just so much fun. And like I said, like it's not often you get to hear from someone who's worked on the projects you have. I, I'm thinking about The Economist [00:28:00] project and Disney. Like you get results for people there, Carlos.
But it's like it's real. I know, but you do. Yeah. And I'm... But best of all, I love the fact that The Machine is here in Pittsburgh doing what you guys do, 'cause you could be anywhere in the country if you wanted to. Yeah. You're hanging out in Pittsburgh, Carlos.
Yeah something else brought me to Pittsburgh. But then I, I, I saw a h- back to the humble thing- Yeah ... I saw a huge opportunity. There, there's some Great tech companies here rivaling- Yeah ... anything from the West Coast, and but they're not as, th- they're not bragging.
Exactly. And, you can brag in an elegant way. You don't need to be about it. Exact- I like that, brag in an elegant way. It's a- and that's what we, that's what we, that's our passion. That's what we love doing. Yeah. And there's, there's a lot of territory here to, That's great ... to be exploring.
I'm glad you're here in our ecosystem helping some of these companies because, like I said- Thank you ... you're, you're a difference maker for some of, these companies. I've seen the brands you're working with. I'm like, "Yeah, man, you guys are amping." You've done some rebrands for some companies and stuff where I'm like, "Okay, these guys are now set for the big stage now."
Yeah. Thank you, Carlos. Thank you. Thanks, man. Oh, my goodness, Carlos. Appreciate it. So much fun hanging out with you. Yeah, likewise. Like I said, you get the official open door policy [00:29:00] ticket for Tech Vibe, so you can come by anytime. Okay. We, we wanna get your insights 'cause, I'm learning so much.
Everyone- Yeah ... gets to learn when they're hearing from you. Well- So storytelling, yes. Thank you. It's the best. It is. Hey, in case you forgot, this is Jonathan Kersting with the Pittsburgh Technology Council, just loving these conversations each and every time we have them, and I cannot wait to see you on the next one.