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Health Care Reinvented: My Highmark App Is a Digital Front Door to Health

Interview by Audrey Russo and Jonathan Kersting

With the My Highmark app, Highmark is building a “digital front door” to a holistic customer experience.  

The new season of Health Care Reinvented kicks off featuring the key team members that brought My Highmark to life. Hear from: 

  • Mick Malec, CEO, enGen and Enterprise Technology and Operations Officer at Highmark Health;  
  • Tracy Saula, Senior Vice President of Product & Health Experience for Highmark Health; and  
  • Naomi Adams, SVP Customer Strategy & Solution Engineering at League Inc. 

With one username and password, My Highmark provides seamless care navigation, shared care plans, virtual/digital health and cost transparency. 

Learn how Highmark is being very intentional integrating solutions to achieve a simpler, smarter, more seamless system of health, coverage and care. Plus, get more insight on how Highmark worked hand-in-hand with League to build and deploy the app with future functions and capabilities planned. 


Welcome to Healthcare reinvented, exploring the intersection of healthcare and technology brought to you by Highmark, here are your hosts, the Pittsburgh technology Council's Audrey Russo and Jonathan Kersting. Audrey, I'm very excited to the new season of healthcare reinvented has begun.

Yes, it does. We have a great cast of people here today and I'm gonna be excited to my am excited to dive in and understand all that they're working on. So there's a lot going on. I mean, we're kicking off the new season with this episode, and we're gonna be exploring how Highmark Health is creating a digital front door for a truly holistic experience. And it's all powered by some really cutting edge technology. We got a great set of guests hanging out with us today we have Mick Malec, who's the CEO of ENGN, and he's awesome, the enterprise technology Operations Officer at Highmark Health, and we have Tracy Saula hanging out with us who is senior vice president of product and health experience. And we have Naomi Adams, who's a senior vice president of customer strategy and Solutions Engineering at League, a partner that Highmark Health is working with in this conversation today. So everyone, welcome to the podcast. We're excited to explore this topic, Adrienne, I love it, when technology and healthcare come right at each other and create cool stuff. And that's what it's all about today.

Where should we start? Should maybe Mick you want to just set the stage in terms of, you know, why, what, and start to frame it for us?

Sure. The Highmark had a very distinct, crisp vision on how we should utilize our provider assets or plan assets to deliver better health care, more assertive health care, more follow up health care, more directed healthcare, using technology and the digital assets. And, you know, using everything that's in the cloud and the right partner, so it is basically saying, how do we scale our patient care using technology. And it's been an exciting ride so far. So in that, you know, like any big company, Highmark was going after the right partners and the right players, to help us get there as fast as possible. And one of our partners, we went from contracting in May, to live in January. So anybody who's used to working with a big company realize that does take changes time space continuum, yes. That so it's a very tight, tight coupling between business that Tracy represents very well technology, which is, of course, as we all know, landed the geeks, which I'm in charge of, and then our partner for league that Naomi represents as the that technology that puts all those pieces together and representing that experience. For our very valuable members.

When I tell the story, you have to kind of go back to 2020 when Highmark first introduced its living health strategy, and at the time that we first introduced living health, it was really with our recognition that health care is broken. And you know, the costs continue to increase, the people are not getting healthier, despite the increases in cost. And the two most important people in the health care equation, people who are trying to care for their health, and the clinicians who serve them, are probably the most disenfranchised in the system. So it just fundamentally is broken. And we set out to fix that that was really our ambitious living health strategy. And it really was grounded in our version of the Quadruple Aim, which is really starting with a better experience for both people and the clinicians, leading to a higher level of engagement, which leads to better outcome health outcomes, which then leads to sustainable cost, right. So it was that that equation. And within experience, it really is three things simple, personalized, and proactive. And like that was sort of the backdrop for our digital strategy. And then the timing of it's kind of interesting, because remember, 2020 here, we were, right in the middle of COVID. And all of a sudden, we got a little bit of help from a crisis, right? Because people that weren't using virtual care, people that maybe weren't engaging digitally, all of a sudden the world had a real curve, right of where both healthcare and just people in general created much more reliance on digital interactions, and at the same time, became much more astute at what they expect from digital experiences. And I would argue that the work that we're intending to do with with our partner League and and Google Cloud as well, is really riding that wave and saying, if we are going to create a better experience more simple Personalized and proactive. It's really through how do we extend the traditional legacy way that we all engage in health where everything's fragmented. You have different payers, providers, vendors, nobody talks to each other data's in all these silos everywhere, to bring it together in a way that, you know, the same way that we all do shopping digitally, we do banking digitally. And it was designed in a way that we like it, and it works for us. How do we bring that same spirit to healthcare, and Naomi can certainly tell this story is that league always says it's a perfect marriage of care, cloud and CX customer experience, and bring that together in the service of better health. And that's really the partnership that we have with like, yeah, Naomi,talk about how that integrated this is fast and furious, right?

Yeah. It's fast and furious. And we like fast and furious. I mean, fundamentally, maybe, maybe I can just paint a little bit of a picture of who league is for folks who don't know, yeah, give us the background, the league we need to do. Yeah, so we're an eight year old company. Seriously, we've raised around $200 million. So well, well funded organization, really with a mission to empower people with their health, we've been always focused on that consumer experience in health care. And really what we spend time on these days is building technology that we can partner with major healthcare organizations like Highmark Health, to power experiences for their end users. And we really come at it from the lens of the consumer, our founders come from a sort of consumer background, they previously launched, companies in the ebooks space. So they used to, you know, launching products and technologies for for millions and even billions of individuals actually. So that's really the ethos, we think about the member every single day and the individual every single day, and in the experience that we want them to have that is consumer grade that is like, you know, watching Netflix or banking or whatever else, that you know, healthcare has been a little bit behind the curve. So it's actually fantastic to be able to partner with Highmark bring our technology to bear to what they're trying to accomplish. And the living health model, you know, and see that that vision come come to life is, is really exciting. So yeah, hopefully that helps explain a little bit about it's wonderful to think, and this is to any of you, do you think that COVID just exacerbated this, the need for this. Do you think that that was was the impetus for this change, Naomi, from your perspective on League, as well, as as from Highmark?

I think, you know, I think the change was probably coming. But it definitely accelerated it. There's always that inflection point, my actually prior to working in, in health technology, I worked in financial services, and, you know, kind of came into some of that during the financial crisis and 2000 2008. And, you know, that also kind of pushed, you know, financial services into where it is today. And so, yeah, from my vantage point, absolutely, I think people really understood that there's other ways to manage their health. And actually, that kind of omni channel experience that you can enable, is also really powerful digital has a super important role to play. But it needs to be useful for the individual, you know, there has been a lot of proliferation of point solutions in the market, to help individuals manage their health, but it's always a little bit more siloed in terms of a particular condition area, or solving a particular problem. And, you know, I think what high marks vision, which we've helped to bring to life is, you know, kind of taking that more holistic approach to making sure that, you know, it's easy for an individual to navigate and manage their health digitally. And you know, how that touches into the real world as well. I don't know, Tracy, and Mick, how are you?

I mean, I can add, and then Mickey can certainly give your point of view, if you look at the trends, digital and virtual health existed, you know, not many years before the pandemic. But it really wasn't until the pandemic that you saw this surge in usage, right, it was it was, you know, when people's clinicians said, Hey, trust me, we can care for you virtually. And we can, you know, we can do this, it'll work. And, you know, in many ways, even with seniors, you know, when you think about seniors, and digital, you know, seniors actually have more time to engage digitally through the pandemic, you know, many seniors didn't want to leave their houses. So they became much, much more savvy. So it really did take something that was a crisis. And as it relates to digital health allowed us to really accelerate progress in a way that I don't know that we would have been able to accelerate progress. Otherwise, I know that's Mick to weigh in on this because he thinks about it more from the vendor perspective. But because people expect more from their digital experiences, they expect it to be easy. See, they expect it to be something that doesn't make their life harder, if you will, pre pandemic, all these vendors that were providing digital health point solutions, you know, I only care for diabetes, I only care for weight management. If you're trying to manage your health digitally, you might have been talking to 12 different apps, 12 different companies. And they were able to, I don't want to say get away with that. But in a post pandemic, world, people aren't having that. Right. And I think, you know, MIT, the thing that I find interesting is, that means those vendors have to engage with us and transact with us digitally differently so that we can create a consistent experience. And we've seen a shift in how they're willing to work with us, and their enablement of those experiences. So I think maybe you can probably speak to that more than anybody.

Yeah, I can say we have made up for lost time. We, you know, the COVID was a catalyst for us to have to deliver differently, communicate differently, as an organization, like any big, long standing health plan, a lot of legacy systems, a lot of legacy data. And it's not an easy path to digitize all that enabled another way. So the best I can say it in supporting the organization, we have quickly become very data oriented in the cloud, very data oriented digitally. Also, there's been some tough lessons with some vendors. You know, as I always say, there's these wonderful brochures that we all get about very handsome men and women with best scopes, and, you know, beautiful little lab coats. And when you start to talk to them, they're like, rubbing two sticks together to make technology fire. So we've gotten a lot of that to that, you know, the vetting process is critical. Because, you know, we all know this, everybody stuff works great in PowerPoint. Oh, it's his executing just fine. And when he get here, it's like, well, I didn't mean right now, right now, like the guy that comes to paint your house. A lot of lessons on solid criteria, solid vendors. And, you know, one thing about high mark is, once we have a good idea, we stick to it. Now, we might have bumps in the road, but sticking to it. If you don't, you'll never have anything in the end. So we stuck to it, and we're better for it. So, you know, to me, it's we've made up for lost time. And we are much more astute on the pieces and parts that make up the cloud.

Mick, I love your your brutal honesty on that, because I'm glad you brought that up because it because it goes to show these are not easy things to do that, yes, the surfaces seem like it's, you know, PowerPoint works seamlessly when you see it. But of course, in real life, it takes a lot more to make it happen. I'm just I think Audrey and I have always admired how Highmark has really engaged with technology and use an outside vendors like League and like Google, as you mentioned, just curious more about your thoughts on working with with with League and what's made them such a good partner, in order to get this my Highmark app, you know, I'll take a crack at it and turn it to say, Tracy, that's a great question. That's the best question I've had all day. All right, I'm hitting it now I'm feeling good, that the word I'm going to use is seamless. They are as committed to customer success as Highmark is. So when you're in the thick of battle, and you're putting up two new digital properties from scratch, you know, it's gonna have its moments and so no one cared about the badge, what company do you have a chart center or the dog ate my homework when most of us don't even have a dog. So it was all one team pulling together. So in the middle of it, all we cared about was giving value to the company, and getting that stuff out there for the member. So it was seamless from a delivery standpoint, a business standpoint, and IT support standpoint. And once again, it got down to we as a collective team needed to deliver. That being said, I'll turn it over to my most awesome business partner, Tracy. So clearly, you know, cultural alignment between partners. And I would argue, just we had such we had and have such an aligned point of view of what a good digital experience and health needs to be. And we aren't willing to waver from that. And I think that you know, and I'm very culturally aligned on what that vision is that we're striving for. And what that honestly means is that there are many, many, many players in the healthcare ecosystem. But there's a small group of players who are like minded, like us who want to be part of the kind of thing that we're doing, right? Because it's very integrated. It isn't about any one vendor, it's about the customer. And it's about how all of that how all of that comes together and service of the customer. And I think you know, how we work together. And the fact that we have the shared vision is what enabled us to go very quickly. Together as we've kind of moved towards delivery of our first product. We obviously have a I got more to do on that product as we advanced the ball going forward. But it is a shared commitment to, we aren't willing to settle for something less, because the people that engage in health are only ever going to engage the way that will benefit them in the way that we hope they will if we put them at the center and design around them, not around us and our business interests, or the interests around every partner. And when it comes to when it comes to administrative parts of health, like finding a doctor, or paying a bill, or what does something cost, you know, those are some of the just basic problems, we're trying to solve the plague all of us and health. But when you go to how we deliver health, and you think about this model, that kind of interplays between, I engage sometimes in person and I engage sometimes virtually and digitally. It's really about trying to think about and leveraging all of our clinician advisors and partners in this work, when you go in to see your doctor, and he's your primary care doc, or He's a specialist or she's a specialist, they look at you as the whole person, they don't look at you and say, I'm just looking at your ear because you have an earache, or I'm just looking at your knee because you're you have knee pain, they have your whole health picture. The only way that digital health succeeds, is if we look at a purse at person digitally the same way that we would, which means it isn't just you in the moment that you're a diabetic or you in the moment that you have knee pain, you have all of those things as a human. So digital health done, right starts to think about the person the same way that their clinician does when they're sitting in front of them office. And that's kind of a guiding principle for that the clinical part of what we're working. So Mick in terms of the technology piece, just at the high level, are you leveraging machine learning and artificial intelligence in terms of cumulatively working towards individualizing this experience for each person?
I would say yes, you know, as we all know, very soon, data will be the currency of the realm. So yes, we have some study, there are tools from our partners, things called next best action, which is simulate saying, you know, if you cut yourself or you sliced off your foot, we should probably deal with your foot first. So we should probably take care of that. So there, that's one of the engines that we're using along a many others. But to keep that nuclear reactor going, it's going to be data, data data. So there's the excitement about standing up something new in it, but frankly, it is exciting. But to keep it going is more and more data for more and more use cases to do more and more diagnostics. And that's where rom were on the quest for data like that movie back quest for fire. So, you know, it's all about the data and how we can use it in much different ways.

So hey, man, can I so one of the things I want to add, so even going live with our very first iteration, and what seven months of this product, it was super important that we bring a level of personalization. So you know, Mick talked about the cloud data, and the advanced analytics, you know, the artificial intelligence and machine learning being more predictive. Even when we went live, we had about 20 different use cases where we were personalizing nudges for people based on their health needs. So you know, kind of understanding that as you're in this digital experience, we understand a health need that you might have, and how do we provide personalized nudges, information, things that, you know, we might want to point you to? Or how do we get you engaged in a certain thing that you don't typically see in a health plan member portal like that is that is kind of novel for a health plan member portal. And I would argue, with a lot of the work we're doing to continue to improve our analytic capabilities. In the future, it won't just be We understand your health needs, your existing and emerging health needs, but we also understand your preferences. And how do we bring together your preferences and your needs to really curate kind of recommendations for you, or journeys for you or suggestions for you that that work? Good for you. So that's a lot of the work that we're doing leveraging our data with advanced analytics.

So do you imagine that at some point, I'm just taking it out all the way to the to beyond what you're doing now? Do you imagine that biometric real time information about Jonathan is going to be available in this? Is that part of future?

Yeah, already from the lens of like, wearable devices? That's, that's already part of what we're working on. And you know, all of the data that we collect from a member as they interact with the experience is mapped to a fire data record. So that's kind of have aligned to, you know, interoperable healthcare standards. And, you know, can be combined with all of the data that Highmark obviously has already on a member in terms of the claims that they have, which is really where a lot of that kind of ml comes in to have that entire picture of an individual to drive those personalizations and recommendations that then, you know, show up in the experience for an individual. But yeah, you know, devices absolutely important. Already, we have wearables, I think, I'm not sure exactly where, you know, Tracy in the future, but there's, you know, there's the possibility, add in, or to consume that data in real time, and then play back to the individual in real time as well, you know, nudges are important in the moment, right? It's not so you know, it's it's not important if you get it kind of later, and you know, by the time you get a nudge about something to do with your health that that thing has passed, especially if you're thinking about it, like an acute situation, for example. So I don't know, Tracy, I'll make if you'd add anything on there,

I'll just add an example of a use case that we would have right now is, so if somebody has a wearable, and it's tied to a health solution that, you know, we're offering, you know, not only do are we able to say to the person, hey, you're eligible for this digital health solution based on information we know about you. And let's enroll you into that health solution, let's create a single sign on experience. So you can engage in that health solution right through my hierarchy, instead of having to go somewhere else. And then we get the data feedback, right? We can even say, hey, you've got this wearable device, and you haven't paired it for two weeks, we're going to remind you that you should pair the wearable device. So even out of the gate, we're starting to do more of that kind of connecting you see the data kind of going back and forth between the experiences in a way that even our early use cases are leveraging.

And I think that timing is interesting, particularly for those people that have adopted biometrics early as early adopters, that that there. Were waiting for that, right? I mean, we don't know it, but as I listened to you, I say, Oh, I'm really wait, I'm ready for that. Right. That's both predictive and preventative, and infrastructure.
Yeah, for sure. And preventative is like a really important word there, right, you know, knowing and anticipating what does someone need to do to manage their health and kind of getting that in front of them before? You know, it kind of turns into a chronic condition down the line is like, it's just so important. For all of us, you know, when I think it's Yeah, and data's data is extremely helpful to, you know, to support and making sure people understand, you know, what are the things I can be doing for myself, you know, my age, in my situation with my family health, with my specific, you know, biometric data, you know, to prevent, you know, future health issues down the line.

As Mick said, it's all about the data and more data and more data, keep feeding that machine. Are there any customers that are they get worried about the amount of data that's being collected? And obviously, you know, there's such care that's put around maintaining the integrity of the data and keeping it, you know, completely confidential? Can we talk about some of those issues, that'd be I think, kind of fascinating to explore.

So data, so this, this is kind of like Fight Club. The first rule of security is you don't talk about security. That's the way I can put it. So I would say that Highmark, like any responsible organization is very, very attuned to all the compliance. Our major partners are also tuned to itself things like high trust and a sock verifications, we take very seriously. So if anything, Highmark will always err on the side of extreme caution. So you know, we have sandbox environments that don't have any data. We have other environments that have de identified data, then we have the sacrosanct, None shall pass picture of Monty Python, Holy Grail, None shall pass that lockstep production data. So you know, we have all these different areas, and we in all sincerity, no kidding, we obsess around all that. So yeah, there is I would say, there is an acknowledgement from our partners that we have it and they validate that we have the right controls for it, and we do the right things with it.

Yeah, and I would say as a as, you know, a smaller company, but you know, growing quickly in the space, we take it extremely seriously as league as well, because it is like, you know, it could be company ending if there was a, you know, a security incident. It's just like, it is so important. And it's important to ensure that, you know, we're working with, you know, amazing organizations like Highmark Health who do have really high standards. We love that. We love that because it pushes us to make sure that we're you know, operating With the highest level of standards as well, from a security perspective, I mean, there is nothing more important than making sure someone's personal health information is secure. I think it's like critical to, you know, to being in this space, because no one else makes me excited, my mind is just spinning because I'm thinking of all the applications here. And we talked about preventative, predictive, etc. But I think about all the social determinants, right of health and maternal health, and, you know, all the things that really came to light during COVID, you know, in terms of successful interventions and access, etc. That piece is exciting to me as well, because I would imagine that you could really harness some of your tools in a preventative mode, as well as tracking in tandem, to help and understand what those interventions are. part of your strategy.

Yes, it most definitely is, you know, one of the things that we're doing, you know, out of the gate is we have a, an a social determinant assessment that Highmark has developed that, you know, obviously, the, the world through looking at zip codes and demographics can infer social determinant needs of a population. But if you want a more precise level of social determinant needs Highmark, a number of years ago developed an assessment, where you know, if a person is engaging with a clinician, or there's a variety of channels through which we can collect this data, and then leverage it to help connect people to the right kinds of support services, solutions, interventions that they may need or find benefit for. And one of the ways that we are using our new, you know, app and web experience, my high mark is as a collection mechanism for that data. So for example, we have a diabetes solution, I was talking about that earlier, as part of that Diabetes Solution, we are running that assessment and collecting that information on the people who are engaging. So it allows us to take that data and use it to help connect those people to the right, the right solutions, the right places, so very much. So that is part of our because we our strategy is very much so that health is physical, and mental and social. And you can't care for a person's physical health without thinking of their mental and their social health. So all of that is very balanced in our model that we continue to evolve.

So this will be push as what as well as pull, right? Okay. And so and this will be MC, this will be on my iPhone, it will be on my Android. It'll be, you know, ubiquitous that way. Yeah, Tracy and Naomi can speak volumes of, you know, understanding what a patient care what it would take care of a patient needs. And having him go do that care is critically different. So, you know, this is all about, hey, we have determined this or you went and got an appointment. And this has been determined. Now we need to guide you, where do you go? What do you ask for? What do you do when he come back? So we got to get you from where you're at back to healthy? And so this is that full engagement model? If you have multiple conditions? Well, let's manage that for you. Let's make sure that you understand. So it really is exciting as heck. I mean, we're all humans. And, you know, unless something really starts to get hurting or bad, we're like, oh, I'll just rub some dirt on it. It'll be fine tomorrow, you know, that doesn't really work with kidney diseases I found out so you know, there's a limit here on how much dirt you can rub. So this is really saying, we're not just here to you know, watch things, we're here to help things and that's a fundamental difference.
On the on the on the data part of this show, if you think about health, right, digital health, and we're spending a lot of time talking about that digital engagement vehicle, but we still have very traditional care management, you know, programs that tend to be very telephonic, you know, programs, who also have people engaging with their clinicians, a lot of the data that we are ingesting and collecting through the My Highmark experience, we are looking at sharing with providers, we are looking at sharing with our care management and our customer service teams so that no matter how a person engages, even if they're not engaging digitally, when they go to their provider, our hope is that we've taken data that was previously siloed we've ingested it through a better mousetrap, generated insights out of it and provided it to people's clinician so that when they show up there, they have a better picture of the person whose health they are trying to care for because people care for their health through a variety of channels. And all of that data, historically wasn't always available to the clinician who was caring for them at the time, as well as care managers. You know that at Highmark or other customer service reps, so there's a lot of work that MC and team are doing on the back end as they if we collect all of this data into the centralized store, and we create insights from it, how does it go to all of these different places, whether it is epic, whether it is our care management platform, you know, and then that's a lot of the back end, Mickey, you certainly can talk about the technical complexities of doing that. But that is also a big part of the work that we're doing.
Yeah, that's, that's a great point. And since we have such a heavy partnership with Allegheny, of course, you know, it's a matter of, you have to be able to place information in the EMR that is useful to the physician, not a distraction, not a commercial. And it because they can get overwhelmed with it, and every physician will tell you, you know, gosh, I'm more time on epic than I am doing what I went to school for. So we have to be very careful that while we are excited, and we talk about data, we have to be very careful in how to orchestrate that data and tour. It's useful. And so Tracy brings a good point, as much it is about digital. Eventually, it all gets to the doctor and the patient having a conversation. So how do we empower that physician to have the best information? They can make sense of it? And so that is an art form? That's not a science yet. Would you not agree Naomi? And Tracy, that's kind of an art. I agree.

Yeah, same thing, in terms of the patient, right? Because you're educating me as a patient, to start to think about things very differently so that when I come in, or I have a telehealth appointment, I'm armed better, right I have, I have a better understanding. And if you keep reinforcing that with me, that'll be part of my persona, in terms of how I interact.

And let me give you a great example of how this all connects. I'm going to use diabetes. Again, just because I've been on a roll of diabetes, it's easy to stick with the same example. If you would go back two years, and you would say there's a digital Diabetes Solution that a person is engaging in, chances are it's a standalone app, it might be something that's covered by their plan, but it's a standalone app, the doctor that they might see their primary care physician wouldn't have no idea that that that that person was eligible for that solution, it was part of their insurance benefits, they certainly didn't know how to sign them up for it. And they got no but data back. So you know, what we're doing now. And some of this is still being introduced throughout this calendar year is, you know, for Diabetes Solution, not only do we have that available through our my Highmark experience where the person has a single sign on, but we have built a smart on fire app that goes right into the clinicians workflow in epic, that was designed by clinicians, for clinicians, that at the point of care, says, hey, this person sitting in front of you is eligible for this Diabetes Solution, hit this button, and you have an easy button to enroll them right in their workflow. So they don't have to leave their workflow. They don't have to go somewhere else. It isn't hard from before them, they can hit that. But they hit that button, it all comes back and the person gets enrolled. And then guess what else we do on the back end? Once the person is engaging, we are now building the data feedback loop to those clinicians. So not only did I as a clinician hit that button and enroll my patient, I'm also getting data feedback to say, hey, they're using this solution, here's what they're doing. Here's how their a one C levels look. So creating that closed loop. So in all, it's the heart, it's the my Highmark experience, it's the data. It's the analytics, it's sharing the data back to the clinicians and building those interoperable tools that enable us to do that. So it's, it's a variety of things that all kind of culminate with that experience. But it's all of that technology coming together in a pretty cool way. That breaks down the barriers and the silos.

You guys have to be having just a ton of fun. And I mean to simplify, but the idea that you're working on these things that are so powerful, and can do so possibly impact someone's care and their quality of life. And you're using some bleeding edge technology with companies like weed out there to make this happen. It kind of It blows my mind a little bit. I'm just thinking you gotta be having a good time. Am I right? When I say that? Well, I'll start. Yes, we are because up until a couple of weeks ago, I thought smart on fire was a heavy metal band. So I'm learning very quickly here. We're adapting we're growing as individuals. I tried to look it up online and couldn't find it to go take more more technology. We are having fun. I mean, honest to goodness, because this is just so different than anything else we've done culturally for high markets embracing a new way. We're working in Sprint's working very rapidly where a lot of the the paperwork and bureaucracy has been knocked out of the way so it's a difference in how we go We're about delivering these things we're doing that's as exciting as anything else you know any big company of course will have its processes and you know much like some movies badges Jonathan We don't need no stinking badges!