Nittany Digital: Turning Stranded Infrastructure Into Digital Opportunity

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Transcript:

Jonathan Kersting here with our Empire of Lights podcast video series with Comcast Business. We're telling some great conversations around what is happening with the whole data center development here in Pennsylvania. But really, it's, it's just everywhere, but there's been such a cool concentration happening here, and the opportunities are tremendous.

And we're having so much fun learning along the way, just really trying to get the facts out there as to what's going on. And our guest today, I'm just very excited to talk to, 'cause he's been doing some... He does some of the foundational work when it comes to all things around data centers. And we are talking to Kenneth Birkenstock, of course, from Nittany Digital Infrastructure.

Do they ever call it NDI for short? We, we try to simplify things, just like with the projects we, uh, build. But I, I would definitely say thank you for an excellent introduction. Great stuff. Um, I've- Absolutely ... I've [00:01:00] been learning more about what you guys do And first off, these projects, some of these data center projects, I mean, we're talking billions of dollars of investment going into communities here, and you laid the foundational groundwork on many of these things to make sure that these things literally have the right foundations to start on.

So I'm so excited to talk to you today about, first off, what your company does- Mm ... how it does it, where you play in all this space, and then really walking through what it means when a data center comes to town. 'Cause I mean, we're seeing lots of headlines out there, just, just all sorts of information, good, bad, indifferent, all, everything going on.

And with you being on the scene, I think this is a great opportunity for us to really look at what is going on, how these developments can be successful, I think is gonna be amazing to talk about 'cause these are really wealth-generating opportunities, not just for a few people, but really for entire communities- Mm-hmm

from what I can tell. So thanks for hanging out with me today, and let's get to the bottom of some of this. Jonathan, thank you. You- excellent experience just interacting with you, and I feel like this, this is gonna be [00:02:00] able to be a voice, or I hope to be a voice that can give clarity, uh, to essentially say, "Hey, this is what we do, and this is where we..."

We are the solution-seeking individuals who- Yeah ... when it comes to these projects- Okay ... um, based on experiences and based on, you know, what's been happening across the country, we've gotten to really learn from the failures that have taken place. There are projects that I think ultimately could have been done differently.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, overall, with the opportunities we're given, we essentially look for sites that, A, are, they work for the community, the community is somebody who's coming out here and saying, "Hey, we can have this conversation. We'd be open to it." Um, and I think one of the biggest, you know, focuses for us is whatever we do, we are going to do it at the highest level.

Um, I think- Love that ... a lot of what, you know, you hear, uh, today are very valid points, and I think that they, they need to be discussed more. 100%, yes. And I think that the thought process that, you know, kind of led to NDI being created was, hey, whatever these, [00:03:00] uh, projects that we end up, you know, looking to do, they have to be at the right place.

They, this is not something you just try and, you know, force a jigsaw piece into the puzzle. Exactly. You have to understand, you know, does the community look for this project? And I think one of the things that we had kinda started discussing, um, even before the podcast- Yes ... was talking about the value of Pittsburgh.

Yes. Um, and really what, what caught our attention, especially Western PA, was a lot of stranded infrastructure. Uh, you brought that word up. Yes. This is the first time I've heard this, and I- Yeah ... cannot wait to explore this in our, in our talk today, 'cause I love that term. Mm-hmm. It's literally s- infrastructure that's in place- Mm-hmm

that allows data centers to be, to be built here. Uh, with, with, with tremendous speed to market because there's these big pieces of infrastructure that most regions don't have, but they're not being used for anything, so they're stranded. Yeah. So I just, I just love that term. Yeah. I just had to... I hope I explained that right.

No, no, you, you did. I didn't mean to steal your thunder or anything. No, no, no, no. But I was like, I, I just love that term. I think that's just amazing. Jonathan, you get me excited, and I think the, the part [00:04:00] that has really started to make sense for PA is we have this infrastructure in place that we're not having to develop unused ground.

We're not having to focus on agricultural, you know, large plots that are essentially gonna be transferred over to an industrial site. We're taking industrial sites that already exist and essentially using the infrastructure- Yeah ... that's there and saying, "Hey- We're seeing that in so many places where- Yeah

it was a, a former coal-fired power plant- Yeah ... that's now gonna be turned into s- it's not like, yeah, you're not taking, you're cutting into old farmland or- Yeah ... woods- Yeah ... or anything like that. So you are repurposing- What was once old infrastructure that was stranded doing nothing- Yeah ... and being able to put new things on top of that, that are directly driving the way modern society works today.

I mean- Yeah ... you pull out your phone, uh, you pull something up on your phone, you, you... It's going through a data center somewhere. It's not just AI- Yep ... being run through data centers. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot more on top of that. But before we jump into that, just talk to me about some of the core basics of what NDI's all about, 'cause I think as people understand what NDI does- Mm-hmm

it's gonna bring to life all the [00:05:00] insights that you have, having gone through some of these projects- Mm-hmm ... and what people can expect and so forth. Yeah. So there's some key things that you do that I think, as I said, are very foundational- Mm-hmm ... when you're working with a, I think it's a developer or so forth, in order to put a data center or a facility like that into place.

Yeah. So we're essentially... NDI is an early stage developer. Our whole premise is we essentially will look for sites before anything is done from a due diligence standpoint. Okay. Now, we're trying to essentially, the first conversations we have are with the community, and the reason that's so important is because when we are going about these projects, we're not looking at this and saying, "Hey, here's a spot.

We're gonna put a, you know, large facility in it and just call it a day." This is something where we have a discussion with the community. Let's learn about them. What's your history? Definitely. And a lot of what we learned, especially in Western PA, is a lot of communities that have had, you know, economic highlights that were 40 or 50 years ago.

This is when they had an active steel mill or some, you know, large scale- Mm-hmm ... manufacturing facility where there was jobs, there was people that, you know, they could live there. They had, you know, a [00:06:00] higher level of income where it made sense to have your family, be able to raise them, and then, you know, work's down the street, and it's, it's not something where you're having to, um, go abroad, so to speak.

So you really had these communities that were built up, uh, based on the opportunities that were there for manufacturing that unfortunately have, have been devastated, um, over the last, you know, 40, 50 years. And what really was the mentality we had was how do we find sites where it makes sense for the community, you can have an open discussion, you understand what the needs are, whether it's from, you know, a concern standpoint with sound, water, power.

And then once you're able to actually prove that this site is plausible, but not just plausible, there is a buffer. There's not a situation where, you know, we're trying to have this project take place and it's like, "Hey, you're, you know, you're gonna be using a lot of water. It's already gonna really strain the systems that are in place."

And the reason I mention this is a lot of the debates have been, "Hey, what's the noise situation? What's the water situation?" Yes. "What's the power situation?" Yeah, water, noise, and then, uh, the [00:07:00] people talking of course is that there's a fear of utility rates going up- Yeah ... because of the ele- the electricity demands on these- Yeah

on these data centers- Yeah ... which are all reasonable concerns. Absolutely. But I think they're all very addressable as well too. Exactly, and that's essentially how our, our company came to be. Interesting. Our thought process was- Okay ... how do we seek solutions when there's problems? Yeah. So ultimately what we figured out was, hey, there are areas where, for example- Some of these f- I would say large manufacturing facilities that aren't in use anymore have now become somewhat of a strain.

Let's use water, for example, where you basically have areas or towns where you have all this water usage that doesn't get used anymore. It's just the residential populace. It's not the manufacturing, uh, facilities still, you know, producing. Especially for, for water's a perfect example. So we, you have some towns, boroughs, municipalities where they had all these, you know, large infrastructure, uh, pieces that were put in place for, you know, an old steel mill or, you know, picture, pick a different manufacturing-specific, uh, site.

But all this water [00:08:00] usage that essentially doesn't exist anymore. So what ends up happening now is these municipalities, you know, the localities, they're now having the residents pay to maintain facilities that- Yes ... aren't for residents. They're for large scale manufacturing. Um, so what you sometimes will see is because of the lack of usage relative to what was being used from a total water consumption standpoint, some of these systems are actually degrading at a faster pace because of underutilization.

So- I never heard that before, but that, that makes perfect sense. Now, of course, there, there... I would almost look at it from the standpoint of it's not a common discussion because some of these, I would say, towns or areas where they have had, um, experiences with data center facilities where overpromising is made, you know, you're trying to get as many, um, you know, tax benefits or, you know, just setting up your town for the best situation to receive some of these projects.

Well, then you start to overpromise, and that's where, you know, unfortunately, when the guardrails aren't set up, it does become a situation where you're, you're having to backtrack and say, [00:09:00] "Hey, we, unfortunately, we, we could not actually, um, facilitate the amount of capacity that's needed." But- Yeah ... a big focus for us is we wanna understand, especially with the sites that we focus on, hey, what's the capacity?

Is it actually a net benefit? Is this going to help, you know, essentially offset costs for the local residents where now we're coming in, we're using water where there is an absolute more than enough, you know, amount of capacity that can be provided, and we're essentially able to now be the, the biggest, um, you know, capital investment for Ha- you know, just paying for that usage relative to a, you know, local resident who really should not have to pay to maintain- Absolutely.

Yeah ... you know, millions of gallons of infrastructure that isn't being used. A- absolutely. No way should anyone in the public be responsible for bearing the cost for a business that would be- Exactly ... coming in to build something like this. Exactly. And, and what I've been learning as we've been exploring these conversations is that the, as, as these data centers move in, they're fully aware that they don't want to be that burden on the community.

I, I feel like there's many out there that are like, they're [00:10:00] here because they're, there's an opportunity for them to make money- Yep ... provide a service- Yep ... but they're not expecting that to be subsidized in any way. Exactly. And so that's why you're, you're kind of confirming some of that with me. Um, what I find really interesting about what you guys do is just going in from the very beginning, is I feel like you're trying to set a stage of transparency.

Yes. Yes. So th- th- that way that the, no one's feeling like they're having the wool pulled over their eyes- Mm ... and feeling, or something's being forced down them. Mm. But the idea that it's You start working with people immediately in the community, getting the feedback, addressing the concerns. Mm-hmm. Um, that to me is a, a very solid first step.

I, I like that approach. It, and it- And it's like, I just feel like this is something that I think needs, we need to do more of. Yes. Yes. If that makes sense. It, it definitely does. And the biggest thought that I have is any developer who is working with a community to essentially have transparency, that- that's an obligation.

It's not a question. It is simply you have to do this. Because I think when it comes to doing these projects, there is now a [00:11:00] public understanding of where these projects have been done, um, maybe improperly, and weren't- Mm-hmm ... essentially done to the best capacity to make sure, hey, was the noise reduced?

Was this an engineering mistake? Where did we fall short? How can we essentially avoid this in the next project? And that's essentially where we're able to learn from past experiences and say, "Hey, these are things that are solvable," like you had said. How do we essentially avoid- Mm-hmm ... having these same mistakes repeat themselves?

Because there are net benefits to having these projects take place for communities that, you know, fiscally are in situations that they could use that additional compensation, they could use that additional tax revenue. And the other thought too is with the additional tax revenue, you're having facilities that, you know, if you can figure out the power situation, you can figure out the water situation, you can figure out the noise situation, which they all can be done and addressed.

How do you essentially have these facilities create the least amount of strain on the services that are provided- Yeah ... in those localities? And, you know- Let's walk through some of that. Yeah. 'Cause I think that's a great opportunity for us to kind of [00:12:00] pick each one of these and kind of pull- Yeah ... on that thread a little bit.

Mm-hmm. Because I think, I think our, many of our, our, our viewers and listeners are really surprised when people kind of learn, like, what actually happens. Yes. Um, so let's start with the price of power. Yeah. That's something that everyone talks about is that immediately the price of power's gonna go up because the grid has to be strengthened and someone's- Mm-hmm

gotta pay for it, so those- Mm-hmm ... those costs will be, uh, passed down to them. Mm-hmm. But that's not necessarily always the case as I've been doing some of my research. How is this actually working in reality? 'Cause one thing I do know that I have learned through our, our, the study that Tech Council did, uh, through, through, uh, data centers here in Pennsylvania is you look at, uh, in Virginia, uh, where there's the most data centers anywhere, um, their power prices are less than they are here, um- Mm-hmm

in Pittsburgh, in the Pittsburgh area. Mm-hmm. So that's, there's not necessarily a correlation there that the prices go up because there's, there's more data centers, so- Mm-hmm Keep going on this thread 'cause I've only brought it so far. You gotta carry this one home for me, or not. Or tell me that I'm [00:13:00] completely wrong.

No, no. That's why I love having these conversations, 'cause I get to learn and, and, and, and, and see what's going on. Yeah. And m- my answer to that is when it comes to these projects, a lot of what I think is, is really been transparent is we are seeing that the overall, the transmission, uh, current infrastructure in the United States is, is always needing improvement.

And I think one of the things that has been a solution in this process for your everyday, you know, consumer who's fearful of their, you know, potentially bills being raised, prices, just consumption of power, you know, costing more, that developer should be the one who's really making the effort to pay for upgrading these systems because them joining the system is what's causing the constraint.

Exactly, right. So the solution is really the developer. And, and the logic I give with our projects is if someone's grandmother is having to subsidize these projects with increasing their utility- Yeah ... rates, it's probably not a good project. I would say it's not. Now, one thing I'm seeing a lot of is obviously is bringing the power on-prem.

[00:14:00] Yeah. The idea is that they're actually gonna generate their power, so they're not gonna need the grid full time. Mm-hmm. And the, there could be also opportunities that as power is produced and as it's metered, 'cause there's such cool technologies as how they're able to meter the power, that some of that can go back out onto the grid- Mm

the power that they're producing, you know, at the site. Mm. So that's where I get really curious about some of the technologies that are happening. But you see the on-prem stuff. You look at what's going on in Homer City. I mean- Mm ... the first thing being built there is a natural gas, you know, uh, the power plant- Mm

to power then a soon-to-be-announced data center- Mm ... that's gonna be on site there. So- The grid's not being impacted there. A- If anything, the grid's gonna be strengthened now- Exactly ... I think. So. And that's a great example. Okay. And I think what you're seeing a lot of is there's, there's an example of a current industrial site that's now being almost revitalized to then produce power, have it added back onto the grid, and then still- Yeah

using that same site's footprint to then add a, a facility there as well. Hit all the marks of the stranded infrastructure- Exactly ... you're talking about there Exactly And actually, and then improving the site. I mean, I mean, having a- [00:15:00] an old coal fower- excuse me, having an old coal-fired power plant. Mm-hmm.

Say that 10 times fast. That's ... I can't. So having an o- having an old coal-fired power plant, I mean, that's pretty filthy environmental business- Yeah ... right there. Yeah. Um, uh, granted, a natural gas, uh, powered one is still burning, uh, fossil fuels- Mm-hmm ... but at a much cleaner rate than anything that coal would ever do.

Mm-hmm. So you're actually kinda upgrading from an environmental standpoint for power production. You're absolutely right. So I don't know, I just feel like there's these, th- there's this give and this take, but I feel like you're taking what was once a derelict site- Mm-hmm ... and giving it new life, and then I'm thinking about the tax benefit that's gonna come back to that community- Mm-hmm

that lost that tax benefit when these industries have gone away. Mm-hmm. And I think the other thing too, when we look at a lot of development today- Yeah ... I, I think that there almost is, like, uh, we're ... To use what's already been created is the best approach for, I would th- say a lot of the facilities, and that's why Western PA really stands out.

And I think from the standpoint of PA as a story, you [00:16:00] also have to keep in mind that PA is responsible for manufacturing a lot of the electrical, uh, m- you know, materials, infrastructure- Mm-hmm ... that essentially creates the transmission system and allows these- Yes ... facilities to take place. So from an economic standpoint, it goes beyond just taxes.

For your local resident, you know, municipality and locality, this is also something where the developer, not developer, but manufacturer, excuse me, but in the state of PA is able to then produce the very products that are then being used in our- Yeah ... state for these facilities. So I think that there's a very large story that PA and especially Pittsburgh has fully started to realize, and I, I look at what the future is holding, and I think the mentality, and this is where NDI's, you know, main focus is, we have to do these projects right because we really only get one shot at this.

You get one shot, and after that- Yeah ... it goes wrong. And- Yeah ... we call this the Empire of Lights because it is all about the fact that Western Pennsylvania is literally home to the electric [00:17:00] grid. And we make- Yeah ... so much of what goes into a data center and into a grid everywhere around the world. Yeah.

We make, we make it right here. Yeah. So our region's uniquely positioned because we, A, we have space to put- Some good sized data centers. Mm-hmm. But we also make all the equipment. We make all the infrastructure pieces. Mm-hmm. And it, and that's being made in these communities. We're looking at, like, billions of dollars of investments like in MEPI.

Mm-hmm. You know, we look at, like, uh, Coherent. Mm-hmm. A billion dollars with Nvidia. Mm-hmm. I mean, these are things that are happening because of, and that all traces back to George Westinghouse. Yeah. It's crazy cool. Some history. You know? It is just really neat stuff, and this is, like, the next iteration of it.

Mm-hmm. But it's, uh, but obviously this is big change. Mm-hmm. And this is why we want, everyone wants to be so thoughtful of what's going on within the community. Mm-hmm. And the idea that NDI kind of helps build that foundation, I keep going back to this foundation 'cause I feel like there should be a foundation in your name somewhere.

I, I appreciate it, man. It- Just because I just feel like that you said there's one shot to do this. [00:18:00] Yeah. And, and I, I do believe, I mean, maybe I'm being naive, but I feel like... And I've met with many of these developers and many of these data center folks over the past year or so, especially through our summit that we've had.

People don't wanna destroy any communities. No. They actually live in some of these communities- Yeah ... in which they're doing these things. So the idea is I think they wanna be able to do this in a, in a, in a, in a thoughtful way and in a way that is safe- Mm-hmm ... that's gonna provide opportunity. You're absolutely right Am I being a little too starry-eyed here?

No, I- I don't know. Like, I just, I just, this is what I've been seeing. I think the best part is you're, you're approaching this with an optimistic tone, but also understanding that this is something that still is a work in progress for- Exactly ... setting the framework- Oh, yeah ... to have this executed within the, what we would consider ideal standards for- Right

local residences. And I think the, the part that you even kinda touched on is people that, you know, are running with some of these projects and are a part of these communities, that's the best [00:19:00] individual to talk to because they're going to be directly or indirectly affected, uh- Exactly ... by, by what takes place.

So I think overall the, the three big things, which is the noise, which I think one of the... It kinda pushes me into the main mentality that, that we really preach with these projects. Everything associated with these projects needs to be put in writing, needs to be tangible, needs to, there needs to be an ordinance- Mm-hmm

in place for the noise. There needs to be an understanding- Everything ... of the, you know- Yeah ... you're sitting under the- Hold accountability, right? Yes, yes. 100%. And that's, that's a big thing that I think unfortunately, you know, with past projects you have to go through processes and learn from your mistakes, and this is where we're getting to say we learned from them, but now execute on that lesson.

Mm-hmm. Execute and say, "Hey, how do we fix this?" And that's where essentially NDI has really, you know, gotten a, a strong, no pun intended, foundation. Um- See? It's catching on, man. Yeah, I know. I know. It's catching on. I know. So that's, that's where we really saw, um, from a visionary standpoint, hey, this can be done right, and how do we essentially do [00:20:00] this because of the economic implications for this, you know, not just Pennsylvania, but for this country.

Absolutely. And I think that's the biggest thing where, you know, truly this is, as people might call me crazy, this is an opportunity, but if it's done right. And I think- If it's done right ... that's been the biggest- Yeah ... focus of, of what we do. So- So as, as far as doing this right, I think another point we gotta, we gotta talk about, we were talking a little bit about the sound.

People- Mm-hmm ... you hear a lot of concerns about the sound that's being generated. Mm-hmm. We've, we've... And, uh, I wanna talk about water usage- Yep ... as well too. We, we touched on that a little bit, but let's just dig into those two things just a little bit, maybe start with water usage. Mm-hmm. Um, I know as technology has been, uh, evolving closed loop systems- Yep

where, um, the water usage isn't as intense as people may believe. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's all of course dependent upon the technologies that are, that are brought on, but what would a community really expect from water usage from a typical- Good sized data center. Um, I think what it's gonna be, I think what, [00:21:00] what really needs to happen is you have to sit down with the water authority.

You have to sit down with the local leaders. You need to understand what, you know, the current infrastructure that's in place. I think the biggest reason you have these negative experiences is because again, there, there is a level of overpromise and underperforming. Okay. And I think it, it's something where you do have to have local leaders who are understanding of how to set the guardrails for, you know, success in the community when these projects are being undertaken because you can't have someone who's gonna sit there and say, "Yes, yes, yes, this is great."

And then you're, you know, you're digging dirt, you're getting everything ready, and you're having a reality shock of, "Oh my gosh, you know- ... we're basically gonna constrain the system to the max." Yeah. And that's when you have issues because now you're affecting the local populace, which is for us, a huge no-no.

Don't want that. No. I mean, you have to live in the community- Yes ... that you're with. Yes. And the idea that you're gonna be taking all the water, that can't happen. It can't. It can't. It just cannot. And if I could say this, one of the- Yeah ... other things, too, and as we've, you know, gone through history and, and learned from these other projects and [00:22:00] facilities, there's now the, the focus on air chillers.

There's different, you know, I would say, processes that are being looked into- Mm-hmm ... as to best approach and solve these, you know, questions related to water. Um, and I think that's where you're going to see constant, you know, focus on how do you make these facilities function in the most efficient way with the least amount of, you know, I would say, carbon footprint and/or negative impact- Definitely

to the locality. And that's- That's why I'm always amazed 'cause when I go to things like the summit that we had, we're looking at some of the vendors that are out there with the solutions that they have. Mm-hmm. Because people, they wanna be able to solve these problems- Mm-hmm ... and they are. Mm-hmm. And give a human being a problem to solve, they find technology to solve it, and it, it's, it's amazing what the solutions that people are coming up with to, uh, to address that.

Mm-hmm. What about the sound side of things? Yeah, from the sound side of things, so the, the cool part is, is you basically can work to have language put in the ordinance where the municipality and locality can then hold a standard and say, "Hey, this is what we're expecting. This is what, you know, the sound is gonna [00:23:00] be up until, uh, essentially that property boundary or that property line."

Mm-hmm. "And this is what we're going to monitor, and we're gonna make an effort to essentially hold you to the standard." Not just, not just make an effort, you will be held to the standard. Absolutely. And I think, again, we talk about the tangibles that the residents need to have in writing for them to have the best understanding.

You know, the best part about- The best part about this experience for me is being able to educate people because I'm not here to sell them on an idea. But it's, it's, it's all about education. Yes. I'm really glad you brought that up- Yeah ... 'cause the idea is it's about educating people. It's not pulling- Yes

like I said, not pulling the wool over, not fooling- Yes ... not, like, making false promises. Mm-hmm. It's about education and honest discussions- Mm-hmm ... and, and seeing what comes from that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think people need to be skeptical. They need to question because that's where you start to have the hard conversations.

Exactly. You start to have, you know, the experiences that are being experienced elsewhere across the country, how do we avoid that happening here? If we're willing to have this project take place, if we're willing to [00:24:00] work with these developers, how can we make it so that these people are benefiting and they're not having to deal with the negative- Mm-hmm

experiences that are also taking place at other facilities? Yeah. And I think the, the biggest takeaways that, that I've had is get things in writing. Get things in writing, set the expectations, set the framework, have the tangibles, and these developers know that whatever, whatever the situation may be, this is how they have to act, and it's within these lines.

Yeah. And I think that's the big focus that our company's had, where we're able to set up sites to be ideal for the local populace and not have it be a situation where the developer's just going in there, building this thing, and, you know, taking a look back and being like, "Hey, we made some engineering mistakes.

Like, we'll figure this out at some point." Exactly. No, we- Meanwhile, you got this whole thing here. Yeah. Exactly. Nothing you can do about it now. Exactly. Yeah. And, and again, we, we go back to the level of investment that's made here, and I think that- Having local populaces being able to essentially set the framework is the [00:25:00] biggest first step of success with these projects- Makes sense

for present and future. Yeah. So- It's a lot of work, man. It is. It's a lot of work, and it, it doesn't- It is ... happen overnight as well either. It's lots of meetings. It's, it's a lot of time, but I keep going back to the opportunity that this can bring to communities- Yep ... to bring more tax base in, to bring jobs in for folks.

Mm-hmm. I know there's a big talk about, oh, there's not very many jobs, uh, after a data center- Mm-hmm ... is built, 'cause of course there's lots of construction jobs, but to actually- Yes ... run a data center, um, tell me more about, like, what are the actual jobs? Like- Yeah ... what are the opportunities, you know, once it's built, and a data center- Yeah

is up and running? And I definitely wanna go back and kinda highlight what you had discussed. One of the- Sure ... biggest things that I think i- there's a reality where this is not necessarily creating the most jobs when this facility's set up, but we cannot forget about the amount of investment that goes into it with the actual building- Mm-hmm

and the actual development of these facilities. Right Because the amount of, I would say, capital that's invested in your local tradespeople to [00:26:00] come. The biggest thing, too, that I really think, you know, is, is great to be focused on, when there is an effort from a local trade perspective on getting these facilities, we're working with locals, we're using everyone who's related to the area, that's a huge focal point of mine.

'Cause I do think that at some level when you're dealing with a developer and, hey, the thought process is we're gonna have somebody who's not from this area come in, you know, be a part of the development, and again, there are situations where that has to be done- Yeah ... or you can't find the- I mean, it's just there's only so many workers, right?

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, and this is, these are huge facilities. So you do need a, a, a larger amount of individuals who are able to do a variety of different, you know, high-level skill, uh, related trades to produce these facilities. And I think focusing on local, making sure that there is a, a very, I would say, um clear understanding that, you know, when it comes to these facilities, you are able to bring in high-skilled, high-paying jobs [00:27:00] post-completion of the project.

But I think one of the other things too that there, there has been a huge focus on is trade-related work, and I think that's something that's really coming back, um- Yes ... related to, you know, these projects. And I can't, you know, shout out to Mike Rowe, but I think that that's somebody who's really made a, a clear connection on saying, "Hey, how do we get these high-skilled trade jobs in front of young people so they know what opportunities are ahead of them that are, are clear?"

'Cause I think- Mm-hmm ... a lot of times, I think back to when I was in high school or I was in college and, you know, just, I think everyone in general, life goes through and says, "What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do?" There, of course, there are the, the few who I, I may say are lucky and they know exactly what it is, but- I wish I were one of them.

Yeah, exactly. But, um, that's, that's where there has been a, a huge opening, I would say, to my generation and, you know, younger generations or even generations above me who are saying, "Hey, what work can I do for the rest of my life and it's going to be more than just paycheck to paycheck? It's [00:28:00] going to allow me to have a higher level lifestyle and for my family to experience, uh, the best, I would say, living possible."

Yeah. And I think that's where these, you know, focusing on the trade school or the trade, um, related work is, is really where, uh, I think we're, we're getting a ton of positive momentum. Um, but then going into more of the, I would say, hard in-person, you know, technicians that are maintaining these, you know, large servers and the facilities themselves, um, you know, you're gonna have some cyber-related individuals.

You're gonna have a variety of different, um, you know, hardware slash, you know, just people that are there to maintain these facilities. Um, so when it comes to that, those jobs are typically very, very high, high-skilled, high-paying- Mm-hmm ... um, relative to what, who needs to be the person in there running these facilities.

Yeah. Um, but again, I think the reality though is we can't forget about how much time, effort, [00:29:00] and, you know, investment goes into just the actual building of these buildings, and I think that's where there is a, a ton of momentum. But the question that does start to be asked is how can we continue there to be an increase in development post the completion of these projects?

And I think this bleeds into another topic, which is almost like community conversation. One of the things- Hmm ... that I, I'd like to, you know, have the community potentially even- When having these conversations with, "Hey, we're thinking of bu- bringing a data center here," can the community be in a situation to have a conversation and say, "Hey, we also would like you guys to potentially invest in this or that.

We want you to help us bring back this and that"? That's an interesting point. That is a perfect opportunity to talk about what else could be brought into the area- Yes ... besides the data center that could be something that is, uh, additive- Yeah ... I would assume, to the data center- Mm-hmm ... and things like that.

You're absolutely right, and that's- Interesting ... and that's where we've tried to look at this from multiple different perspectives, 'cause I, I think, again, [00:30:00] our thought is why stop at just the completion of the facility? Where else can you go from a development standpoint? Is it trying to focus on bringing manufacturing jobs back?

Is it helping, you know- There's a whole supply chain that can also then be attached- Yes ... or aligned with that data- Yes ... center as well, too. Yes, and that's where, again, we're, we're looking at this from the big picture and saying, "Hey, our goal is not to just have one singular, you know, uh, facility built. Our goal is to ask you guys where can we go next?"

And I think there's a lot of communities, too, that as they slowly begin to benefit from these projects- Right ... one of the questions that you start to ask is, "Okay, how can we bring jobs back?" Well, some of the time it's there's not enough housing in these areas- Okay ... or the housing has not been- Right ... like, invested upon- Hmm

or, or really improved upon. So- Yeah ... I, I look at this from almost a domino effect. It's the project helps start the process of bringing and revitalizing these towns, municipalities, localities, whatever it may be, with infrastructure that's already in place, and what c- infrastructure can we add [00:31:00] in addition to that helps improve the lifestyle and the, the life experiences for those that live in these areas.

Yeah. That's the big thought. It's, it's an amazing story to see, like, how this all builds and stacks and, like- ... the domino effect. Yeah. And the domino doesn't drop without having that foundation to make sure that it can keep ticking the other dominoes down as it rolls around. Mm-hmm. Um, we know we've been seeing a lot of headwinds lately, lots of, lots of headlines- Mm-hmm

are around, uh, uh, data centers and a lot of, uh, conflation with AI. Of course, AI is, is driving a lot of data center growth, but data centers are not just AI. Mm-hmm. Uh, some people are saying that if you build a data center, that means more AI, and that AI's gonna get rid of people's jobs. And I won't go down that, but it's like, eh, okay, okay, but eh.

We won't go down there. Yeah. But, but the idea is, I'm, I'm just saying, I just feel like right now it's like it's tenuous. Yeah. I feel like, and I feel like there's a window for these opportunities. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I think I saw that New York has just put a moratorium for a while- Mm-hmm ... on doing anything. I knew there was some talk in [00:32:00] Pennsylvania.

The tech- Mm ... council's trying to put a moratorium on the moratorium- Mm ... so we can have these conversations so the best decisions can be made so we don't lose the potential of these manufacturing jobs that- Mm ... come out of this. What do we do next? How do we keep the ball rolling in the right direction here?

Kenneth, please tell me. I think the, the things that stand out to me, whatever... I do think these discussions need to be had, and I think the biggest takeaway I've had is understanding the framework, understanding- Okay ... when having these discussions, we can't make the process convoluted because we will start to create a vacuum- Mm

where nothing's getting done. And now essentially the whole momentum we had, especially in western PA- Yes ... w- gets a risk- Yeah ... of being lost because now it's like, "Hey, well, that multi-billion dollar investment that's gonna be made, we need you to hold off for a year, two years, three years." And then that investor or developer is gonna sit there and say, "Hey, I, I-" I can, I can go elsewhere.

"I'll g- I can go elsewhere." But the other thing too, I think with having the mentality of we need to set standards, we need to set framework, we want, you know, if these projects are being done, they need to be [00:33:00] done within this, you know, expectation. That's going to allow there to be an agreement overall with everyone who's involved with this conversation, 'cause ev- everyone who lives in PA is essentially involved in it, whether or not- Yeah

the data center is, you know, 50 miles from the house or five minutes. Exactly. But, you know, the, the reality is, is these discussions do need to be had, but I think at some level we can't become so, um, you know, we can't get to a point where nothing's getting done. And we can't make things so convoluted that- We just send up loose in the momentum that's been built And it creates uncertainty.

Exactly. Exactly. And the market does not like uncertainty. No, and I, I think what the market likes, not necessarily, nothing can be guaranteed, but the, the market likes, uh, an environment where things can be understood. And I think if you start to make things complicated, it will kill momentum. Yeah. Um, but again, these are conversations that need to be had.

And I think at, at some level, um, we just need to make sure they're clear-cut and they allow for, you [00:34:00] know, developers to understand, okay, if this is what we're gonna do, this is how we do it So that's, at the end of the day, I think that we're in a good spot. Yeah, good. And especially we're, we're learning from other states and other experiences.

Um, but again, I think that one of the biggest takeaways that we've had is in, just in PA, we're in a different situation relative to a lot of these other states, especially- We have these competitive advantages that really- Yes ... puts us a few steps ahead- Yes ... and we don't wanna lose that, that advantage- Exactly

that we currently have. And, and we also don't wanna forget that we are, you know, almost, I, I don't know if I should say unicorn, but unique in the situation we, we have- Yes ... with the infrastructure that's already in place, and- The stranded infrastructure- Yes, exactly ... you brought up. Yeah. I'll go back to that.

I, that's- Exactly ... I'm stealing that term from you, Kenneth. Take it. Run with it. I'm just saying, we're gonna be using that in places. I'll be like, "This is from Kenneth." Simple as that. Very cool stuff. I mean, all the way around, like these are the types of conversations that we're trying to have because we're just trying to get, like you said, the conversations going so people can understand.

Mm-hmm. I feel like many times people, [00:35:00] um, are fighting a data center that doesn't really exist. Mm-hmm. It's this, it's this data center that's created from headlines from things. Mm-hmm. And so people are, are obviously concerned about their community- Yep ... so they react, and they're like, they're ready to, like, go, you know, they're ready to, to defend and stuff.

But it's like, let's talk about the reality of what actually- Yeah ... is coming. Yeah. And it all starts by laying those foundations. Absolutely. And I think the, the part that always stands out to me, people should always be skeptical. And the reason- I love that ... I say this, because you need to question.

Everything, yeah. Part of our process- I know ... too, like when we go, before we even start anything, we're meeting with the local government, we're meeting with the local, you know, water, sewer authority. But the next step at some level is once you're able to start doing due diligence and prove that this project is not going to be of net negative impact to the community, all the resources are there, we're not going to be in a situation where we're, you know, having the community subsidize the project, the developer is going to be the one who's making, you know, the investment to make this possible.

That's when we wanna have open houses. That's when [00:36:00] we wanna have conversations because our logic is give people the information so they can make the decisions themselves. We're not here to try and force you to say data centers are great. We're here to essentially say, "Hey, this is what's involved with it.

These are the standards of practice we are gonna play within. What are the expectations you guys would have? Can we meet those expectations?" Mm-hmm. "And then from there, give us your thoughts. Give us the hard questions. Give us the, the, you know, thought process that goes through your guys' mind when, you know, you've been living in this area for 10, 15, 30 years.

Pick a number. Let us understand you better so then we can understand how to make this project work for you." Amazing stuff. My key takeaways are the transparency- Yes ... that you're trying to bring to this whole process. You have to. Letting the, the conversations so you can- Yeah ... build that transparency. Simple as that. That's why we're having the Empire lights here There you go. So we're so glad to have you stop by and bring your perspective. So valuable to be part of this conversation with us today, Kenneth. So you are the best, man. Thank you for hanging out with me here. [00:37:00] This is what we love doing, simple as that.

And I just encourage everybody, we have more and more conversations like this coming your way. This is what it's all about. An amazing opportunity here. Let's make sure we do it the right way, and we use the best technologies, the best minds, and keep moving forward. Simple as that. And in case you forgot, it's Jonathan Kersting with the Pittsburgh Technology Council.

And of course, we have all sorts of links right back to what's happening there with NDI so people can learn more about you, Kenneth. Simple as that. Thanks for being here.